Scrivener 2.0 support for citations

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08 Mar, 2011 04:48 PM

Hi Mekentosj Team,

this forum will be inundated by reports, suggestions etc. But when it all ebbs, please come back to this humble feature request:

I write my manuscripts using Scrivener 2.0, because just as Papers 2.0 for articles it's the most functional writing environment out there:

Thank you for adding this elegant citation feature that allows me to finally ditch Endnote!
It would be fantastic, if the insert citation/format bibliography functionality was available also for Scrivener. After all your goal is to allow citations in every Mac application, right! Scrivener 2.0 and Papers 2.0? They just seem made to play nice together.

Update from Mekentosj on this topic: things have improved since that question was posted. See current support level for Scrivener in this post:

Showing page 2 out of 4. View the first page

  1. 31 Posted by Rafael on 16 Mar, 2011 06:02 PM

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    I think we will have a bunch of approaches here:
    A) Scrivener used as frontend to latex using MMD. Inserting the citation as MMD [#cite_key][]. Exporting refences as .bib and compiling into latex later.
    B) Scrivener used with MMD but without latex. Insert Citation like above, then bibliography like [#cite_key]: John Doe. A Totally Fake Book. Vanity Press, 2006. MMD talkes care of references later.
    C) Scrivener used as RTF editor. Just do something like on Papers.

  2. 32 Posted by drspkelly on 16 Mar, 2011 06:17 PM

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    Good news Charles; I'm impressed by how quickly the team acted on Papers 2.0 bugs and issues and look forward to seeing this terrific piece of software develops.

  3. 33 Posted by wolfjo on 16 Mar, 2011 06:18 PM

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    To follow up on C) above. My workflow is fairly simple in Scrivener for manuscripts, and might be somewhat typical for those not using Latex or MMD aware apps afterwards.

    My writing is done in Scrivener, where relevant figures, data, etc. is also stored for easy access. My work on a manuscript is broken down into sections (Intro, Discussion, Legends) in the Scrivener folder, and to insert citations I use the standard Endnote format {Wolf, 2005} in those areas.

    When I am done (or close) I assemble the manuscript ("Complile") into Word format, open it in Word and format the bibliography.

    I would happy for now as a starting point if Papers would insert the correctly tagged citation instead of me typing {citation}. Then when I export it, Word can do the Bibliography formatting.

    If you want to include another step on the Scrivener side, it would be formatting the bibliography, and creating a SEPARATE text document in the Draft folder that will be appended upon assembly, and would remove the need to format the bibliography in Word and allow other programs to accept the text as well.

    Although some of the other suggestions sound interesting, this basic functionality would be a good starting point IMHO. Let me know if you need more info or if any of this doesn't make sense.

  4. 34 Posted by rvdparis on 16 Mar, 2011 07:08 PM

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    @wolfjo, Great idea to add separate bibliography document in draft folder in scrivener...this would be very helpful

  5. 35 Posted by wolfjo on 16 Mar, 2011 07:11 PM

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    Thanks rvd -- when I think about Papers and Scrivener playing nicely together with citations without having to go through EndNote - well, that would just be amazing. In case you haven't noticed Charles, Scrivener has a very loyal following in the research community!

  6. 36 Posted by choon on 16 Mar, 2011 11:06 PM

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    charles : my work flow similar to @wolfo. biblio at the end of the exported compiled document.
    @wolfo : great suggestion on separate biblio document in scrivener. charles : workaround similar to "scan rtf" in zotero with compiled document containing exported to word is also good.

  7. 37 Posted by jesst on 17 Mar, 2011 08:25 PM

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    My workflow is also similar to wolfo - currently I use the RTF format, then open in Word to do final formatting for the journal, and adding to a separate document in the draft folder would be ideal. I don't use BibTex or MMD (yet, have yet to find the advantage for me when all journals use MS Word in my field), have been using Papers with Endnote when I absolutely have to, but would like to be able to use Papers only. I would definitely need more journal styles/formatting available to do so, though.

  8. 38 Posted by hwit on 17 Mar, 2011 10:06 PM

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    My workflow is exactly as described by Rafael in post 32 under A). Scrivener with MMD for citing, compiling to LaTeX and using a separate BibTeX file.

  9. 39 Posted by Karl on 20 Mar, 2011 03:58 AM

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    Love both scrivener and papers. Used to use papers 1 to do bibtex. With the current "half implementation" of scriveners support, I cannot even use manuscripts to insert a citekey, it only inserts the full citation.

    It would be nice to have a super quick fix for inserting the citekey. In this form, I have better citations in textedit than in scrivener for the sake of having an icon??

    Sorry, but not cool. I've tried the restart and change preferences multiple times, but can't get bibtex to insert.

    now for some positives: this would be absolutely killer if you simply let me paste the bibtex key.

  10. 40 Posted by charles on 20 Mar, 2011 05:29 AM

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    now for some positives: this would be absolutely killer if you simply let me paste the bibtex key.

    I am trying to make that work for the 2.0.2 next week.

  11. 41 Posted by Cheered on 20 Mar, 2011 02:13 PM

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    Charles (post 42): Wonderful that you are respoding in a weekend.
    If I consider the first version of Papers2 as a sort of beta version everthing went flawless. :) I love the development and I am moving other (non-pdf) stuff already to Papers. However it would be nice to cite it as well.

    The ability to introduce a citekey in scrivener would be wonderful. I have a workflow via (usually) Pages or Word so I can make the final bibliography with the existing tools if you provide the cite key (like post 34)

  12. 42 Posted by charles on 23 Mar, 2011 07:10 AM

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    Hi all,

    Please check out Papers 2.0.2 which should be available via the Papers update mechanism very soon. We have also published a quick guide on Scrivener support with Papers / Manuscripts:

    The current status of Scrivener support is based on the feedback we received from you so far, so thanks very much, and please keep it coming :-)

  13. 43 Posted by charles on 23 Mar, 2011 07:19 AM

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  14. 44 Posted by Karl Gruschow on 23 Mar, 2011 08:24 AM

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    Awesome, it works great so far.

    I think the only other thing that would be useful for "proper" scrivener support is actually to give the alternate option of inline citation format instead of bibliography citation format.

    I think producing a bibliography for a scrivener document would come after the output stage anyhow.

    Frankly, from my user perspective. I can paste citekey from my papers library without opening papers or using the mouse, so Papers+Scrivener just became the best solution I've seen for focusing on my writing/document and not on formatting.

  15. 45 Posted by wintanclan on 23 Mar, 2011 09:25 AM

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    Hi Mekentosj Team,

    thank you for rapidly implementing citations in Scrivener with the papers 2.02 update! Your proposed workflow seems to function very well, and is all I'll need to try and lose Endnote...

  16. 46 Posted by lionel.rigoux on 23 Mar, 2011 09:48 AM

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    Great ! I'm quite impressed by the speed at which the updates are released... Bravo !
    The workflow is really nice, and Papers2/Scrivener is the perfect combo.

    Also, I've encounterd a bug using Scrivener 1.54 : in the "cited papers" of my scrivener manuscript, only the paper corresponding to my last citation is shown. However, the "compile to rtf with scrivener > compile the rtf file with Magic Manuscript" trick works perfectly and creates a new manuscript in Papers2 with the correct "cited papers list".

    By the way, I'm happy to see the MMD support in the roadmad !

  17. 47 Posted by Halazri on 23 Mar, 2011 02:16 PM

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    I confirm that it works smoothly!

    Just a note to those using Pages. You should save the compiled rtf file into Pages format, then sit back and watch it work! (Unlike TexEdit, it won't work in rtf format opened in Pages)

  18. 48 Posted by choon on 24 Mar, 2011 06:29 AM

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    Thanks for listening to us.
    Thanks for 2.0.2.
    Pls continue to improve the program.
    One of the reasons why I love Papers is that I feel that the developers understand the work I am doing and are always trying to help make my work easier and better.
    And I love the Papers Forum.....there are so many experts commenting and sharing and i learnt so much from them.

  19. 49 Posted by charles on 24 Mar, 2011 10:26 PM

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    Also, I've encounterd a bug using Scrivener 1.54 : in the "cited papers" of my scrivener manuscript, only the paper corresponding to my last citation is shown. However, the "compile to rtf with scrivener > compile the rtf file with Magic Manuscript" trick works perfectly and creates a new manuscript in Papers2 with the correct "cited papers list".

    Indeed a bug. Should be fixed on a next update. Thanks!

  20. 50 Posted by charles on 24 Mar, 2011 10:27 PM

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    By the way, I'm happy to see the MMD support in the roadmad !

    If somebody on this list could describe in greater details how you'd typically work with MMD (and BibTeX?), that would be helpful. In particular, we'd like to add the [@citekey] format but I want to make sure this is what is needed. Thanks!

  21. 51 Posted by Rafael Simon Ma... on 25 Mar, 2011 12:29 AM

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    I would expect something like this.
    a) yada yada yada call magic manuscripts with control + control.
    b) search, select paper, insert citekey.
    c) citekey is inserted like [][#BlaBlaI:2010p3430]
    d) Compile Using MultiMarkdown to latex.
    e) Export All Papers from Papers2 to bibtex.
    f) Compile latex.
    h) Profit!

  22. 52 Posted by charles on 25 Mar, 2011 12:47 AM

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    Thanks, Rafael! That seems pretty straightforward. We will even try to include step (g).

  23. 53 Posted by choon on 25 Mar, 2011 06:44 AM

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    minor bug:
    manuscripts only inserts as bibtex cite key in scrivener 2.0.4 and papers cite key in Word.
    unable to make manuscript insert as "papers" cite key in scrivener.
    when scrivener is exported as rtf and opened with word and biblio generated :
    the rtf is scanned for "papers" cite key and the references have a \cite(1), \cite(2) etc.
    i have to "find \cite" and "replace" with "" to get a nice output.

  24. 54 Posted by charles on 25 Mar, 2011 07:21 AM

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    manuscripts only inserts as bibtex cite key in scrivener 2.0.4 and papers cite key in Word. the rtf is scanned for "papers" cite key and the references have a \cite(1), \cite(2) etc.

    Indeed, this is a bug we have now identified and should be fixed in the next update. As a workaround, you should in fact set the default citekey format to BibTeX, and it should do the right thing in Word (though you will have first to remove the manuscript from your Papers library, since Papers will otherwise rememeber and think you'd rather use Papers citekeys on this file; or simply name the compiled rtf differently so it's seen as a 'fresh' document by Papers). Many thanks for your feedback!

  25. 55 Posted by lionel.rigoux on 25 Mar, 2011 08:57 AM

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    My workflow is very similar to the one described by Rafael, except for two points:
    c) I use [#citekey][] instead of [][#citekey], I think this is more reliable for multiple citations like [#citekey1][][#citekey2][]. Maybe an issue to discuss...
    e) I only export the papers related to my manuscript. So I would love to have a feature in Papers to export the "Cited papers" list of a manuscript directly in bibtex or, even better, having Papers managing a magic bibfile for my manuscript. A smart collection to filter papers cited by a manuscript can do the trick too, but it would be less convenient I think.

  26. 56 Posted by Rafael Simon Ma... on 25 Mar, 2011 04:31 PM

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    That format of citekey work for me too. As long as the brackets are
    inserted, is not big of a problem to move them around if you want to
    specify an specific page.
    I export the entire library as bibtex just because it's easy.

  27. 57 Posted by charles on 31 Mar, 2011 10:18 PM

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    manuscripts only inserts as bibtex cite key in scrivener 2.0.4 and papers cite key in Word.

    This should be fixed in 2.0.3. You are no more stuck with BibTeX cite commands. Here are all the release notes for Papers 2.0.3:

    (of notable interest: extension of the trial version for 30 more days for our early adopters)

  28. 58 Posted by choon on 31 Mar, 2011 10:43 PM

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    Thanks for 2.0.3.
    I can do my work better now than with 1.9.
    I have already paid up for the full version. :)
    Pls keep improving the software as that would improve our lives.

  29. 59 Posted by papers.michael on 06 Apr, 2011 03:27 AM

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    I just found this thread, and am delighted it exists! Scrivener is something like an IDE for LaTeX coding, and MMD makes it even better.

    Just a heads up though, MMD is in very late beta for an upgrade from MMD2 (which will be largely deprecated) to MMD3. An individual user of Scrivener can choose to attach either version of MMD, simply by placing the relevant folder in their Scrivener Application Support folder.

    And one major change between the two is citation support. MMD3 adopts natbib as the default LaTeX bibliography implementation, and has some syntax changes in citation management:

    LaTeX: \citep{myCitekey} = MMD3: [][#myCiteKey]
    LaTeX: \citet{myCitekey} = MMD3: [][#myCiteKey;]

    This is the state of play on this date, it is subject to change. Which is why on another thread (before I found this one) I was wondering if it would be possible to define our own wrappers to cite-keys (like BibDesk allows through its Template options) so that we can be responsive to changes in ancillary programs.

    Cheers for you guys paying attention to this workflow! Scrivener/MMD + Papers => LaTeX = bliss...

  30. 60 Posted by papers.michael on 07 Apr, 2011 02:59 PM

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    It might be just me, but (using Scrivener 2.0.5 and Papers 2.0.3) cite-keys only insert in Papers format {myCiteKey} and neither BibTeX format, no matter what I set in preferences. However everything works as advertised in TextMate, for example.

    Just for the record, my workflow is also: write in Scrivener using MMD, compile to LaTeX, open in TextMate to fine tune, and compile to PDF from there. That's where BibTeX is invoked and the bibliography formatted.


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